Comments on: A few Notes upon Combatative Systems http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/ The experiences in Second Life of Ordinal Malaprop. Scripting, design, observations, notes. Mon, 13 Oct 2008 20:36:37 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.2 By: Cliff Dieffenbach http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-52882 Cliff Dieffenbach Wed, 01 Aug 2007 11:53:20 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-52882 Yes, exactly. Saying "no temp-on-rez" is admittedly vague, but that's how I understand that rule, as it's how it was explained to me. No casing ejection, 30 rounds or less before a required reload & no magazine ejection and you'll have the base of a very DCS sim friendly weapon. Other things that will be considered is textures & overall script performance. Breach apparently had a red flag over it's weapons because of this. Script performance would jump horribly when just simply wearing them (30k ips with the Uzi), so you could imagine how sim owners wouldn't want that weapon in their estate (in all fairness to Breach, they have put out new Desert Eagle pistols that compare nicely to Black Ops who are one of the preferred weapons on DCS sims, but the Uzis (if there is an update) hasn't been tested as far as I know). Yes, exactly. Saying “no temp-on-rez” is admittedly vague, but that’s how I understand that rule, as it’s how it was explained to me.

No casing ejection, 30 rounds or less before a required reload & no magazine ejection and you’ll have the base of a very DCS sim friendly weapon.

Other things that will be considered is textures & overall script performance. Breach apparently had a red flag over it’s weapons because of this. Script performance would jump horribly when just simply wearing them (30k ips with the Uzi), so you could imagine how sim owners wouldn’t want that weapon in their estate (in all fairness to Breach, they have put out new Desert Eagle pistols that compare nicely to Black Ops who are one of the preferred weapons on DCS sims, but the Uzis (if there is an update) hasn’t been tested as far as I know).

]]> By: Ordinal Malaprop http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-51041 Ordinal Malaprop Wed, 25 Jul 2007 08:25:08 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-51041 Ah. That's very helpful. So, the no-temp-on-rez rule is really only for "persistent" projectiles which don't immediately die on collision? (And which must also be phantom?) A general ban on casing ejection is useful to know about too; I shall make sure to have the owner be able to switch this on and off. Ah. That’s very helpful. So, the no-temp-on-rez rule is really only for “persistent” projectiles which don’t immediately die on collision? (And which must also be phantom?)

A general ban on casing ejection is useful to know about too; I shall make sure to have the owner be able to switch this on and off.

]]> By: Cliff Dieffenbach http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-50877 Cliff Dieffenbach Tue, 24 Jul 2007 23:10:01 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-50877 Well, yes and no. I'm the owner of the sim Dark City (which is now continued on the sim Obsidian City) and have worked closely with Miss Wright (owner of Toxian City) concerning her standards for weapons. The standards for identifying sim-friendly weapons (a list she created that I fully support) is below... 1. Bullets MUST die on collision (with anything). The no temp on rez rule is for things like arrows that stop in front of your body and linger in the air. The rounds must also be phantom. 2. No casing/magazine ejection. This causes collisions (very bad ones at that). Collisions are VERY bad for the environment. This is ironic since the popular "Springfield" guns from Black Ops have magazine ejection (not even phantom clips) that you can't turn off. A quick story on collisions and temp on rez... I assisted another combat sim before mine opened up and a player was goofing of with the Abranimation's exploding avatar--which most know uses temp on rez pieces of body parts. These pieces basically scatter about, then roll around on the ground before disappearing. An intestine got stuck between two prims. This alone cause so much collision it crashed the sim. When the sim came back up, it crashed again. Again the sim came back...and crashed. This went on for a while before we had a Linden investigate and found the stuck object. This was a temp on rez object guys, so yeah the concept is good, but don't assume it'll just "go away". Miss also sent me a texture of her collision report displaying a comparison between a bullet and an extracted magazine. The figures were stunning to say the least (I'll have to look it up if you want hard numbers). A little further on collisions. Toxian City uses Linden ground for their "streets" which "absorbs" collisions compared to simply walking on prims (my Dark City was a 3-tier urban env so 98% of the sim necessitates walking on a prim). The biggest culprit of high collisions is walking up steps (followed closely by noobs running into walls ;p). Putting an alpha ramp over steps (if you *must* use steps) greatly reduces this, or just use ramps. Back to the list... 3. 30-50 round limit (sim depending) before a reload is required. This is nothing more than RP and has very little if not no relation to the sim environment. 4. No auto fire. Yeah, all a combat sim needs is more lag. 5. No explosive rounds. 6. No push rounds. Again, RP based. 7. No caging. Hopefully that cleared the fog some. Also, the api for DCS enhanced damage is shared only with a small pool of individuals who are also DCS developers as I understand it. You have a better chance of touching the face of god before getting the api in your inventory. With that said, DCS is a universal system, so the vast majority of weapons on the market will register damage on it; any weapons maker can make their line of products to be used with DCS. The catcher here is if the weapons are friendly enough to use on those sims who have the above guidance established for their environment. On the flip side (expanding on what Tyffany was suggesting) the api allows for enhanced damage, basically securing the DCS/Carlos/S&C/Tiger Armor/Black Ops place in the market. In short, anyone can make a weapon and it'll work with DCS, but if you want just a bit more kick, get one that's DCS enhanced. Well, yes and no.

I’m the owner of the sim Dark City (which is now continued on the sim Obsidian City) and have worked closely with Miss Wright (owner of Toxian City) concerning her standards for weapons.

The standards for identifying sim-friendly weapons (a list she created that I fully support) is below…

1. Bullets MUST die on collision (with anything). The no temp on rez rule is for things like arrows that stop in front of your body and linger in the air. The rounds must also be phantom.

2. No casing/magazine ejection. This causes collisions (very bad ones at that). Collisions are VERY bad for the environment. This is ironic since the popular “Springfield” guns from Black Ops have magazine ejection (not even phantom clips) that you can’t turn off.

A quick story on collisions and temp on rez…

I assisted another combat sim before mine opened up and a player was goofing of with the Abranimation’s exploding avatar–which most know uses temp on rez pieces of body parts. These pieces basically scatter about, then roll around on the ground before disappearing.

An intestine got stuck between two prims. This alone cause so much collision it crashed the sim. When the sim came back up, it crashed again. Again the sim came back…and crashed. This went on for a while before we had a Linden investigate and found the stuck object. This was a temp on rez object guys, so yeah the concept is good, but don’t assume it’ll just “go away”.

Miss also sent me a texture of her collision report displaying a comparison between a bullet and an extracted magazine. The figures were stunning to say the least (I’ll have to look it up if you want hard numbers).

A little further on collisions. Toxian City uses Linden ground for their “streets” which “absorbs” collisions compared to simply walking on prims (my Dark City was a 3-tier urban env so 98% of the sim necessitates walking on a prim). The biggest culprit of high collisions is walking up steps (followed closely by noobs running into walls ;p). Putting an alpha ramp over steps (if you *must* use steps) greatly reduces this, or just use ramps.

Back to the list…

3. 30-50 round limit (sim depending) before a reload is required. This is nothing more than RP and has very little if not no relation to the sim environment.

4. No auto fire. Yeah, all a combat sim needs is more lag.

5. No explosive rounds.

6. No push rounds. Again, RP based.

7. No caging.

Hopefully that cleared the fog some.

Also, the api for DCS enhanced damage is shared only with a small pool of individuals who are also DCS developers as I understand it. You have a better chance of touching the face of god before getting the api in your inventory.

With that said, DCS is a universal system, so the vast majority of weapons on the market will register damage on it; any weapons maker can make their line of products to be used with DCS. The catcher here is if the weapons are friendly enough to use on those sims who have the above guidance established for their environment. On the flip side (expanding on what Tyffany was suggesting) the api allows for enhanced damage, basically securing the DCS/Carlos/S&C/Tiger Armor/Black Ops place in the market.

In short, anyone can make a weapon and it’ll work with DCS, but if you want just a bit more kick, get one that’s DCS enhanced.

]]> By: Amber Palowakski http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48430 Amber Palowakski Tue, 17 Jul 2007 01:01:03 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48430 And don't ask me why I called you Lady Coyote, I have no blessed clue. And I can't blame it on the drink, I'm only half-way through my second beer! My deepest apologies, Miss Ordinal! And don’t ask me why I called you Lady Coyote, I have no blessed clue. And I can’t blame it on the drink, I’m only half-way through my second beer! My deepest apologies, Miss Ordinal!

]]> By: Amber Palowakski http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48429 Amber Palowakski Tue, 17 Jul 2007 00:54:29 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48429 Very informative post, Lady Coyote, as I am tentatively reaching out into the murky world of weapons building myself. Thank you! Very informative post, Lady Coyote, as I am tentatively reaching out into the murky world of weapons building myself. Thank you!

]]> By: Tyffany Flintoff http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48066 Tyffany Flintoff Mon, 16 Jul 2007 02:02:29 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48066 I'm going to take a shot in the dark here (excuse the shocking pun), but might the owners of that particular sim be selling their own "approved" weaponry? If they aren't they need some business advice. I’m going to take a shot in the dark here (excuse the shocking pun), but might the owners of that particular sim be selling their own “approved” weaponry?

If they aren’t they need some business advice.

]]> By: cala http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48065 cala Mon, 16 Jul 2007 01:59:40 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48065 er, I believe this is an overusage of a good build rule. Temp-on-rezz objects cause just as much server-side and asset-side lag as non temp-on-rezz. Every one of them has a UUID, and belong to the owner that created it, and has physics properties and can collide - thus, hits the asset server. The "is not blocked by parcel prim limits" is a great thing for specific cases - like bullets, where they're not intended to stick around. Where they're *awful* to use is for permanent builds on a sim- just to get around the sim prim limits. Seeing gardens flicker is not just an eyesore - it's steadily pounding the asset server for the owner of those temp-rez controllers, 24-7, and can contribute to the Download Queue backlog. (interpreted to english: this can be bad.) Where they're *perfect* to use is for objects that should only exist for a few moments - visual effects, and bullets are great examples. It's totally valid to point out that even well-scripted bullet "auto-cleanup" scripts sometimes won't fire, and then some GM is going around picking up "Roleplay Droppings" - won't that be fun. Temp-on-rezz is a great universal engine designed exactly to handle that process for you. :\ er, I believe this is an overusage of a good build rule.
Temp-on-rezz objects cause just as much server-side and asset-side lag as non temp-on-rezz. Every one of them has a UUID, and belong to the owner that created it, and has physics properties and can collide - thus, hits the asset server. The “is not blocked by parcel prim limits” is a great thing for specific cases - like bullets, where they’re not intended to stick around.
Where they’re *awful* to use is for permanent builds on a sim- just to get around the sim prim limits. Seeing gardens flicker is not just an eyesore - it’s steadily pounding the asset server for the owner of those temp-rez controllers, 24-7, and can contribute to the Download Queue backlog. (interpreted to english: this can be bad.)
Where they’re *perfect* to use is for objects that should only exist for a few moments - visual effects, and bullets are great examples. It’s totally valid to point out that even well-scripted bullet “auto-cleanup” scripts sometimes won’t fire, and then some GM is going around picking up “Roleplay Droppings” - won’t that be fun. Temp-on-rezz is a great universal engine designed exactly to handle that process for you. :\

]]> By: Day Oh http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48031 Day Oh Sun, 15 Jul 2007 23:47:44 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-48031 Thanks for the heads-up, of course... but oh, the poor market! The poor asset server! Thanks for the heads-up, of course… but oh, the poor market! The poor asset server!

]]> By: Ordinal Malaprop http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-47821 Ordinal Malaprop Sun, 15 Jul 2007 09:07:27 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-47821 Well, as I say I haven't ever seen any indication of it myself either; all of my bullets have die-on-collision and die-timers in any case, simply to keep sims clean, but every now and then one will fail to activate for some reason, and having the prim temp-on-rez means that no cleanup is necessary. But I would also say that I do not exactly have much experience in dealing with sims where large numbers of people are firing large numbers of bullets at the same time. It is quite a small modification to have a version of a gun that fires non-temp bullets, even if it is a bit of a pain in the backside, so I might as well spend a little time doing so, just to be on the safe side. I wouldn't want some poor soul spending money on my weaponry only to find that it was not allowed in a DCS2 environment. Well, as I say I haven’t ever seen any indication of it myself either; all of my bullets have die-on-collision and die-timers in any case, simply to keep sims clean, but every now and then one will fail to activate for some reason, and having the prim temp-on-rez means that no cleanup is necessary.

But I would also say that I do not exactly have much experience in dealing with sims where large numbers of people are firing large numbers of bullets at the same time. It is quite a small modification to have a version of a gun that fires non-temp bullets, even if it is a bit of a pain in the backside, so I might as well spend a little time doing so, just to be on the safe side. I wouldn’t want some poor soul spending money on my weaponry only to find that it was not allowed in a DCS2 environment.

]]> By: Day Oh http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-47660 Day Oh Sat, 14 Jul 2007 23:19:06 +0000 http://ordinalmalaprop.com/engine/2007/07/14/a-few-notes-upon-combatative-systems/#comment-47660 I think that's ridiculous! On the contrary, I have recently been caused a great deal of grief because I rezzed alot of prims on a sim, and on one of the parcels that was full, it actually caused one or more of the objects (a big chunk of someone's building) that were supposed to be there, to be returned (or deleted, haven't found out yet). And on the other hand, when I normally rez hundreds of prims across a sim (to do things like sensor sweeps) I use temp-on-rez, and the worst that has ever happened is my viewer doesn't properly clean up all the prims (*client side*) so it looks like they're still there, but they can't be interacted with. When I relog, they're gone. If people fire non-temp bullets on the sim I try to keep clean, I often don't find them for ages, and they bother me P: I've been trying to get people to use temp bullets for as long as I can remember. This also reminds me of how sim owners are opposed to texture animation because they think it causes lag. It doesn't make any sense to me, and tests using hundreds of texture-animated prims didn't back it up. It just seems like some fanatical scapegoat thing. I think that’s ridiculous! On the contrary, I have recently been caused a great deal of grief because I rezzed alot of prims on a sim, and on one of the parcels that was full, it actually caused one or more of the objects (a big chunk of someone’s building) that were supposed to be there, to be returned (or deleted, haven’t found out yet). And on the other hand, when I normally rez hundreds of prims across a sim (to do things like sensor sweeps) I use temp-on-rez, and the worst that has ever happened is my viewer doesn’t properly clean up all the prims (*client side*) so it looks like they’re still there, but they can’t be interacted with. When I relog, they’re gone.

If people fire non-temp bullets on the sim I try to keep clean, I often don’t find them for ages, and they bother me P: I’ve been trying to get people to use temp bullets for as long as I can remember.

This also reminds me of how sim owners are opposed to texture animation because they think it causes lag. It doesn’t make any sense to me, and tests using hundreds of texture-animated prims didn’t back it up. It just seems like some fanatical scapegoat thing.

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