[12:08] Jeska Linden shouts: Kage Seraph: Cory, if you were a super hero, which would you want more, the mutant ability to scale things at will or the ability to make them more stable by the power of your mind? [12:08] Wrestling Hulka: sigh at that question [12:09] Alayna Hutson: are you kidding me? [12:09] Cory Linden shouts: scaling versus stability isn't really a choice... I would want to do both [12:09] Samantha Poindexter closes her eyes and shakes her head. [12:09] Allana Dion: oh cripes [12:09] Jamie David: Is this real???? [12:09] Jeska Linden shouts: Rob Adelaide: What impact will the impending voice system have on the main grid as we know it now? [12:09] Ravanne Sullivan shouts: How about relevant questions and someone fix the CC group?!? [12:09] Digital Digital: no one got mine :( figures [12:09] Notecard Writer: Yes [12:09] Cory Linden shouts: Since voice is using external servers for mixing and sends a very small stream to each client, the impact of on teh grid [12:09] Kage Seraph: There is a certain irony in that this town hall about technical problems is itself having technical problems. ;) [12:09] Veeyawn Spoonhammer: cc group is working for me [12:10] Zagro Ferraris shouts: i just got bumped out of the CC group [12:10] Imogen Saltair: not me [12:10] Zagro Ferraris shouts: i cant get back in [12:10] Cory Linden shouts: as a whole will be minimal from a scaling standpoint. From a use/business/community standpoint, the impact will be incredible... [12:10] Jamie David: IWhen are Group IM's going to be fixed? Lets start off with that please? [12:10] Cory Linden shouts: we've been doing all our linden meetings in the voice client for a month+ and it is amazing how well it works... [12:10] Wrestling Hulka: Jamie - that's answered in the blog I believe. [12:10] Mecha Dinosaur: haha voice is a joke [12:11] Cory Linden shouts: in fact it has had a measurable impact on development, too, since multiple groups are doing their morning standup mtgs in the voice client as well. [12:11] Sascha Vandyke: it was voted no for . sigh [12:11] Jeska Linden shouts: Sweet Valentine: Can we please have a way to back up our own inventorys things we buildto help with inventory load and losses? im not asking for backing up copy items just teh items we make ourselves and also what is being done about inventory losses there was a patch posted that they said was fixing this but people are still losing items daily ? [12:11] Jamie David: LOL [12:11] Joshua Nightshade: bwahahaha. [12:11] Allana Dion: it's broken [12:11] Cory Linden shouts: Agree that backing up items you have full perms on is a good idea. We really feel it is important to build that system in a way... [12:12] Cory Linden shouts: that scales and is robust enough to use more broadly. SL has suffered from rapidly deployed systems that we then have [12:12] Nyx Divine: yeah Sweet would hate to lose all those freebies she sells [12:12] Cory Linden shouts: to rely on for years and years --XML-RPC for example -- so this isn't a quick fix. Would like to work on it in Q3, however. [12:12] Jeska Linden shouts: Katie Welles: As you're working to fix "Search" -- can you do something about "abuse of key words?" [12:13] Celano Obscure: Well great. Nearly of my most valuable items, the costly ones I treasure most, are NOT full perm. So that helps me how? [12:13] moo Money: clear your cache and restart [12:13] Cory Linden shouts: We are starting on a major reworking of search in SL. We've talked in the past about how search in sl is a different problem than on the web... [12:13] moo Money: it seriously helps [12:13] Celano Obscure: I mean, I really couldn't care less about the junk I made. It's just's that. Junk. I could make it again in five seconds. [12:14] Samantha Poindexter: Celano: read the blog. Supposedly that's one of the things they're trying to work out. The questioner confined this to full-perm, not Cory. [12:14] Jeska Linden shouts: Digital Digital: I would like to know whyat are we supposed to do when we lose such an expensive item in second life for example I bought a slingo machine for 16KL and it's gone, I have tried everything also reported it many times and never get a responce back in e-mail or anything. [12:14] Cory Linden shouts: but we think we have a good approach that will be more resilient to simple spam-based attacks. More details as the design is refined. [12:14] Celano Obscure: I don't have anything lost right now. I just have a few expensive avs I'd hate to see disappear forever the way some folks have. [12:14] Alayna Hutson: heh, try calling the tech support... I still haven't got a response months later [12:14] Khamon Fate shouts: You're going to have to shout if you're talking to us Heretic. [12:14] moo Money: jesus christ, you guys are freaking out more than I did and I lost my entire inventory [12:14] moo Money: *which I got back [12:15] Nyx Divine: wonderful Moo! [12:15] Samantha Poindexter: Ooh, you did, Moo? Yay! [12:15] Wrestling Hulka: solution: Be a blog writer for SLI [12:15] Sascha Vandyke: great, the group for questions is not working any longer [12:15] Zagro Ferraris: i keep loosing bit's of my inventory aswell [12:15] Zagro Ferraris: so far nothing to inportent [12:15] Zagro Ferraris: i try to keep my inportent stuff moving around so it stays fresh [12:15] Cory Linden shouts: As is spelled out in the terms of service, you do create content at your own risk in SL. We are making every effort to reduce that loss and I am sorry that it has occurred... [12:15] moo Money: oh don't even pull that [12:15] moo Money: let the man speak [12:16] Digital Digital: lmao [12:16] Zagro Ferraris: we need a BANK style invenotry system where you can store longterm unused items in it [12:16] Inigo Chamerberlin: Ah... FU, got it :-) [12:16] Cory Linden shouts: and numerous recent releases are directly addressing underlying stresses and scaling issues in inventory and assets. [12:16] Phoenix Psaltery: SHHH! [12:16] Alayna Hutson: Next time, hope that your credit card information gets lost and you don't have to pay for your premium account anymore... [12:16] Jeska Linden shouts: Kylix Petit: Where does stability and performance fall in the priorites for LL development.... There is a problem literally every other day and it seems like there is VERY much room for improvement in this regard. [12:16] Alayna Hutson: oh wait, nvm, won't ever happen. [12:16] Digital Digital: it's ok they dont care they got their money for me buying the 16KL [12:16] Cory Linden shouts: As I spoke about in the blog post, 69% of the development staff at LL are currently on scaling and stability... [12:16] Digital Digital: maybe reverse credit card charges? [12:16] Jamie David: lets all have a party [12:17] Kitty Barnett: other residents get your money, not LL [12:17] Nyx Divine: 69% even? :) [12:17] Mecha Dinosaur: I'd perfer over 9000 [12:17] Cory Linden shouts: and that percentage is rising over the next few weeks. It is the highest priority and the focus of the majority of our design, coding, and QA work. [12:17] Fart Binder: lol QA .. [12:17] Cory Linden shouts: We are also working on the next gen architecture to allow far more scaling thean the current design. [12:17] Jeska Linden shouts: Vienna James: I am concerned about releases that have blatant issues, why are they being missed in Beta? [12:18] Fart Binder: Instead of getting better things are going to get more worth ... [12:18] Fart Binder: worse* [12:18] Mecha Dinosaur: Because hardly anyone uses Beta.. because the beta sims are so slow... [12:18] Cory Linden shouts: Many problems only appear when we hit high load. Part of the solution to this is better synthetic testing, but the beta grid exists for people to expose problems... [12:18] Zjggy Stardust: shhhhhhhhhhh [12:18] Nyx Divine: yup need more BETA testers :) [12:18] Zagro Ferraris: Vienna Go to beta and help us find them ... beta so barron of folks [12:18] Cory Linden shouts: You can all help by exploring the beta grid and posting bugs and repro cases to the public jira. [12:18] Zagro Ferraris: nyx come join me in beta [12:18] Jeska Linden shouts: Lewis Nerd: When can we expect to see "Traffic" removed? It serves no purpose, is entirely inaccurate and gamed, and most likely adds to many other problems we have [12:19] Mecha Dinosaur: That would require the beta not be lagtastic [12:19] Nyx Divine: :) [12:19] Mo Hax is Offline [12:19] Joshua Nightshade: Lewis stole my question. -.- [12:19] Alayna Hutson: amen to that question [12:19] Mo Hax is Online [12:19] Cory Linden shouts: Removing the current traffic metric is part of the new search project, so the goal is to pull it as soon as possible. [12:19] Imogen Saltair shouts: Hear Hear!!!! [12:19] Zagro Ferraris: Mecha ever go in beta any time other than a main grid down for maintenince [12:19] Nite Zelmanov: Yay for question! [12:19] Zagro Ferraris: i go in all the time becos its faster [12:19] Nite Zelmanov: Yay for answer! [12:19] Wrestling Hulka: Lewis stole my first born :( [12:19] Jeska Linden shouts: Spank Lovell: I'd like to ask what Quality control measures LL has in place to police the testing and release of both client updates and patches the the SL client and backend systems. It seems to me that each release introduces issues or breaks previously stable features? [12:20] Patchouli Woollahra: hangs in there at least one hour a week. often much more. [12:20] Alayna Hutson: another amen, especially breaking stable stuff! [12:20] Cory Linden shouts: As I mentioned, the challenge with a system as complex as SL is testing w/o full load. As we continue to builkd out the dev team... [12:20] Mecha Dinosaur: Yes I have gone to beta to test out things.. and it's lagtastic.. sim crossings usually result in a crash.. and I won't even talk about how unstable the voice client is. [12:20] Cory Linden shouts: We will be working on better synthetic tests and benchmarks. In addition, nearly all new/refactored code is being ... [12:21] Maverick Miasma: beta works better than main for me... [12:21] Cory Linden shouts: written with unit tests, whcih help. But the best way for you all to help make SL better is to use the beta grid and report repro cases when you find them. [12:21] Flight Band: All Go [12:21] Jeska Linden shouts: Cedric Boyd: Since i'm not getting any answer from the support concerning this question: when will the map be updated again? The last map from the sim i live on was up2date about four weeks ago. Live Help didn't answer to my question and the support still not too ;). [12:21] Starr Sonic: For those who know peeps who can't get into the sim.. this is streaming live on www.slcn.tv [12:21] Mecha Dinosaur: The voice beta client crashed 48 out of 50 times for me. .most amuzing. [12:21] Fart Binder shouts: Unit Tests is not testing! [12:21] Mo Hax is Offline [12:21] Alayna Hutson: if LL wants more people to go to the grid, they better start providing incentives [12:21] Allana Dion: can't ask questions in the group, keep getting error message [12:21] Rob Adelaide: oh, hi Starr [12:21] Patchouli Woollahra shouts: it is so! [12:22] Rob Adelaide: p [12:22] Rob Adelaide: sup [12:22] Alayna Hutson: *beta grid [12:22] Patchouli Woollahra shouts: Qualitative testing is testing! [12:22] Starr Sonic: Hey Rb [12:22] Fart Binder shouts: There can be still bugs if you don't use human testing with protocolls and stuff! [12:22] Nyx Divine: alayna, having a viable game is incentive enuf for me [12:22] Cory Linden shouts: We know about the bug and it is actively being worked on. We will try to provide more details after the meeting. [12:22] Patchouli Woollahra shouts: Hence the invite to beta grid [12:22] Veeyawn Spoonhammer: Alayna, you need an incentive to help make the end product better? [12:22] Fart Binder shouts: Every bigger company, and yours is big enough, has an own testing appartment! [12:22] Alayna Hutson: doesn't matter... no one is going to the beta gird and incentives will help pull people in to help where needed. [12:23] Zagro Ferraris: i gave up on the questions group [12:23] Jeska Linden shouts: Sascha Vandyke: Can't the patches be tested on a beta grid, because they always render the whole sim unstable? [12:23] Patchouli Woollahra: Eh, he's heare to fart. [12:23] Nyx Divine: a beta grid? WTF is that? hehe [12:23] Cory Linden shouts: Patches are tested on the beta grid, but often times bugs do not appear until full load testing. [12:23] Jeska Linden shouts: Duckling Kwak: Is the explosive land expansion a factor impacting grid performance? If yes, has LL evaluated other alternatives to managing the rising cost of land? The increased land has had a modest impact on land prices. If it's costing SL more in performance, it's not a worthwhile tradeoff. [12:24] Mo Hax is Online [12:24] Cory Linden shouts: Not really. There are a couple of load points related to sim count, but one of them was removed last week and the other is being designed away. [12:25] Jeska Linden shouts: Nite Zelmanov: Does the new search functionality being worked on include the discontinuation of traffic based rankings to illiminate the camping/bot impact of people gaming that system? [12:25] Jamie David: ditto!!!!! [12:25] Cory Linden shouts: Traffic was our first attempt to create relevance ranking and it clearly is imperfect at the best of times.... [12:25] Nite Zelmanov shouts: Jeska, he already answered that questions! [12:25] Nite Zelmanov shouts: FFS [12:26] Cory Linden: we're pretty confident that we can generate better relevance ranking using other approaches. [12:26] Callipygian Christensen: :etgirl- we sent one successfully today to a group of over 2000..it might just have been a miracle though [12:26] Cory Linden shouts: we're pretty confident that we can generate better relevance ranking using other approaches. [12:26] Ravanne Sullivan shouts: Please, no redundant questiions! [12:26] Nite Zelmanov: Thanks Cory, sorry for the DUP, you alreadyu answered that [12:26] Joshua Nightshade shouts: nite: No he didn't. Simply deleting traffic won't get rid of camping. They game it for popular places. [12:26] Heretic Linden shouts: Please direct your questions to the group Linden Town Hall Questions. [12:26] Jeska Linden shouts: Rita Cummings: Is there any project about improving Sound in Sl? Your sound component seems to capable of much more then what the current functions allow as to do. Will you expose more functionality in the near future? [12:27] Jamie David: Heritic we can't, We try [12:27] Ravanne Sullivan shouts: The questions grop as well as the CC group are not working! [12:27] Cory Linden shouts: Voice is going to generate a lot of new music and audio options. [12:27] Cory Linden shouts: and our effort is there more than other audio features. [12:27] Celano Obscure: Indeed. The CC group hasn't popped up for me yet. [12:28] Cory Linden shouts: but sound bugs are going into public jira nad the studio focusedon bugs will look at them. [12:28] Wrestling Hulka: CC group is not in use because this is a non-voice town hall. [12:28] Wrestling Hulka: thought that was obvious :X [12:28] Jeska Linden shouts: Chaos Mohr: What is being done to address land database issues which result in things such as parcels being paid for and not transferring, parcels being sold to multiple people etc? This seems to be a major technical issue which keeps cropping up and hasn't been fixed yet. [12:28] Celano Obscure: Yeah, but not everyone can cram in this sim. There might be peopple on the outside who'd like to know what's going on. [12:28] Heretic Linden shouts: A copy of this Town Hall transcript will be posted on the blog. [12:28] Wrestling Hulka: ^ what he said [12:28] Cory Linden shouts: These are likely symtpoms of the broader stresses on the central db and transactions.. [12:29] Ravanne Sullivan: CC group was supposed to mirror chat [12:29] Cory Linden shouts: as I mentioned int he blog post, we are attacking these problems in two ways, to first identity weak spots in the current system and to build a better transaction system as well. [12:29] Jeska Linden shouts: Robaato Yoshikawa: do MySQL instances are load balanced, or the architecture is based on only assigning different server to residents, if the answer is no, have LL looked at tools like Sequoia: http://sequoia.continuent.org/HomePage [12:30] Cory Linden shouts: Right now the different residents go to different servers. Ops will get the sequoia pointer, but more broadly we want to go a more scalable architecture long term. More details on that very soon. [12:31] Jeska Linden shouts: Magi Merlin: What focus are you putting into improving pre-release testing in order to reduce our pain? [12:31] Nite Zelmanov shouts: Jeska FFS [12:31] Ravanne Sullivan shouts: ASked and answered already! [12:31] Cory Linden shouts: We've hit this one a few times. It is the majority of our design work, we post all potential code to Beta grid, and we hope that more of you hit the beta grid to test it. [12:32] Alayna Hutson: come on, question asked, question answered, repeats = wasted time [12:32] Jeska Linden shouts: Sharrah Brendel: What about the loss of live help..it has been inpossible to contact a live person in SL for over two weeks. I have left 5 tickets and never heard a word...Where have all the Lindens gone? [12:32] Patchouli Woollahra starts humming 'where have all the cowboys gone'. [12:32] You shout: working at stability issues :D [12:32] Gwynnie Boffin shouts: that's all in the blog, too [12:32] Cory Linden shouts: There's an extensive blog post about that, will post into chat in a moment. [12:33] Allana Dion shouts: We can't Heretic, it's broken, all we get is an error message when we try to ask a question [12:33] Jeska Linden shouts: Keiki Lemieux: I often have upset customers who have lost animations or other no copy items when trying to transfer them from their inventory to a HUD. Other customers have lost their HUD altoghether. Since yesterday's update, I've had 3 customers contact me with inventory loss issues. Two questions, 1) Is there a particular resource that I can point someone to who is experiencing inventory loss issues, like a page in the wiki? and 2) If you are noticing inventory loss after users attempt to move items in a particular way, can you provide a list of suggestions that I can pass on to my customers to avoid inventory loss? [12:33] Sascha Vandyke: close the group and reopen the im [12:33] Zagro Ferraris: ok i've tried asking this in questions 12 times and keep getting error's [12:33] Finbar Zhao is Online [12:34] Zagro Ferraris: Are we going to have some kind of help with greefing in the public sandboxes since thers no more live help. and :) when do we see the first sculpties in beta. [12:35] Cory Linden shouts: There are inventory related bugs on the public jira, also we have been putting a lot of code into QA to address some of thos eproblems. For more details, see blog post on transactions. [12:35] Jeska Linden shouts: tx Oh: q1) i still can't modify scripts in group deeded object but i alowed to edit them. q2) if i change objects inventory, it takes a lot of time to get it updated. q3) the read from notecards is very slow. WHY? [12:35] Torley Linden shouts: Public JIRA Issue Tracker - http://jira.secondlife.com [12:35] Heretic Linden shouts: Please confine your comments to Linden Town Hall Discussion. [12:35] Kitty Barnett: (abuse reports for that, Zagro) [12:35] Cory Linden shouts: On specific bugs, please make they are in the public jira issue tracker, please add specific repro cases if you have them, and the studio focused on current bugs will be able to hit them. [12:36] Texas Timtam: (Live coverage of this town meeting at http://slcn.tv) [12:36] Jeska Linden shouts: Nel Shan: How do the Lindens feel about the Open Letter Project, and what it implies about the state of Linden/resident communications? [12:36] Cory Linden shouts: I can't speak for all Lindens, but as I mentioned in the blog post, I thought that it did a good job of coalescing issues into one thread. [12:37] Ravanne Sullivan: from this meeting it seems they feel it is like a two by four between the eyes [12:37] You cannot currently invite anyone to your location because the region is full. Try again later. [12:37] Jeska Linden shouts: Synack Fitzgerald: has LL considered migrating to a database that scales better that mysql and pays more attention to data integrity (postgresql is free, but oracle or db2 would be viable options as well)? [12:37] Cory Linden shouts: We don't want to work on a model where we attempt to scale a central db. Instead, the effort is to build out a more scalable architecture. [12:37] Zi Ree: why.. noscript ..no work ..in noscript area? :P [12:38] Cory Linden shouts: And MySQL master->slave->slave setusp we use are quite reliable. [12:38] Heretic Linden shouts: Please direct all questions to the group Linden Town Hall Questions. [12:38] tx Oh shouts: decentralisation is the way to go [12:39] Jeska Linden shouts: Kymber Schnook: The blog indicates that LL will provide an exporter for Maya for the creation of sculpted prims. The range of pricing for different versions of Maya runs from $2,000 to $7,000 USD. Will you make available a more affordable means of export at the time of introduction of the sculpted prim? [12:39] Nite Zelmanov shouts: There there a linden clever enough to boot the spammy objects? Thanks! [12:39] Heretic Linden shouts: Please direct your comments to the group Linden Town Hall Discussion. [12:39] Wrestling Hulka: There is a free personal usage Maya client I believe ^^ [12:40] Cory Linden shouts: I agree that only being able to export from Maya is suboptimal. We expect other exporters to be written and someone could take the open source client and build an editor there as well. [12:40] Jeska Linden shouts: Cay Trudeau: Do you think arranging physichal server on other continents, like Europe for instance, would ease up on the server load, ease the connections and allow better performance for European residents? Would that also lift the load from sending texture data across the wire? [12:40] Kitty Barnett: uhm :( [12:41] Cory Linden shouts: We absolutely want to deploy servers overseas. We have an architectural quirk in how we talk to the dbs -- a layer of single threaded dataservers -- [12:41] Heretic Linden shouts: Please keep in mind that a transcript of this Town Hall will be available. [12:41] Cory Linden shouts: that would suffer in situations with greater ping latency, so we need to fix that problem first, whcih is being worked on. [12:41] Cory Linden shouts: once that is fixed, we will begin international deployments. This is critical since over 65% of our use is from outside the US. [12:42] Jeska Linden shouts: Daisy Beauchamp: regarding 1.15 and graphic cards in laptops not working: 1. Why is it inconsistent? Why can I login and stay logged in for hours after 5-10 attempts? 2. Will SL ever support other graphic cards, or should I consider selling my Island and counting my losses? 3. Is it possible to use an older version of SL if you have issues? [12:42] Wrestling Hulka: Solution: Servers in Space :D [12:42] Cory Linden shouts: Laptop drivers are still an issue for all highperformance 3D applications. Over time, they are improving, but not as quickly as any of us would like. [12:43] Mo Rocco: Why have I not gotten any response in my request to increase my Lindex Limits? [12:43] Cory Linden shouts: We are discussing how to drive the client onto both higher and lower end cards, but right now more development is on system wide scaling. [12:43] Veeyawn Spoonhammer: Nice work SLCN.tv, good coverage [12:43] Jeska Linden shouts: Doc Nielsen: What we are asking for is that these problems are addressed immediately, ahead of new features, and that we are able to see tangible improvements. Are you going to do this - yes or no? 12:44] Cory Linden shouts: As I previously mentioned -- and was in the blog post -- 69% of development is currently on bugs and scaling. That number will increase this month as we continue to hire. [12:44] Marilyn Murphy is gonna have docs baby [12:45] Kitty Barnett sighs at a sim restart in the middle of a town hall :( [12:45] Cory Linden shouts: Also, this is a good time to remind folks, we are hiring developers aggressively, including offices in Seattle, Boston, and all over the Bay Area. [12:45] Zi Ree: me ..no can move ..there :P [12:45] Ruud Lathrop shouts: But not in Europe [12:45] Cory Linden shouts: Plus, we will always look at smart folks anywhere in the world since SL is working quite well for distributed software development. Oh, Brighton, too! [12:45] You: any possiblity of hiring devels from south america? [12:45] Fart Binder: Ruud yeah ^^ [12:45] Jeska Linden shouts: Sam Stork: Will there ever be a good IDE? Two seperate clients for example, which would make things a lot easier for everyone? [12:45] Ruud Lathrop shouts: Yeah [12:46] Fart Binder: I don't count UK as Europe :p *hides* [12:46] Fart Binder: just kidding [12:46] Fart Binder: ^^ [12:46] Heretic Linden shouts: Please confine your comments to the group Linden Town Hall Discussion. [12:46] Cory Linden: We are starting the design process for making the UI even more end-user customizable. Plus it is open source, so I think the answer is yes, but scaling/stability is more important right now. [12:47] Jeska Linden shouts: Thorian Pennell: I would like to know if it'll be possible for group owners to limit chat ability of members? [12:47] Alayna Hutson: Next time Heretic says that, I'm getting 100 000 linden dollars [12:47] Cory Linden shouts: Voice chat within groups is on the roadmap, so yes. [12:47] Jeska Linden shouts: Sascha Vandyke: If there's a database issue and deployment problem, why don't you put a time limit on free accounts? [12:47] Notecard Writer: Damn god question [12:47] Alayna Hutson: oooh good idea [12:47] CickMy Lunt: makes sense to me [12:48] Phoenix Psaltery: Must say I agree [12:48] Astarte Artaud: Well nice to see the townhall has just disappeared from us at Brampton [12:48] Nyx Divine: here here [12:48] tx Oh shouts: no voice chat on linux scheduled [12:48] Mildred Mapp: sure [12:48] Samantha Poindexter: ...not to me. Not at all. [12:48] Melchoir Tokhes shouts: How about that IDE question?